Welcome Guest Blogger Jo Beverley!
Hi everyone,
I love the exploding cigar concept, because that’s what drives a romance novel, isn’t it? – the unpredictable explosions along the way. If all goes smoothly, it’s great for the lovers, but not much fun for us.
The human mating dance. It’s all scientific, actually, driven by brain chemicals, and following predictable patterns of behavior – from the look, to the safe touch, to the risky touch, to the kiss, to…. Insanity. Yes, they’ve proved that the brains of people in love are very like the brains of people high on cocaine. No wonder disasters explode.
If you’re curious, you can read all about it in Why We Love, by Dr. Helen Fisher – a fabulous book.
So what I’m talking about is love and sex in romance novels and the way the moves, the patterns are essentially the same in all times and places -- the 21st century club scene, a Regency ball, a medieval marriage negotiation, or an imaginary world. And because we want a book out of it, something has to go spectacularly wrong, and that’ll probably arise out of the patterns of courtship and those crazy-making brain chemicals.
I’m also curious as to how believable you like the behaviors to be in romance novels, because certainly in historicals I find the actions often stretch my credulity quite far. The sexual drive is powerful, and people in love can be crazy, but still….
I happen to be able to illustrate my point with four works of my own – and who doesn’t like to talk about their darling offspring? Is 2008 I’ll have four stories out – a new novel in a few weeks; two reissued novels, also in a few weeks; and a reissued dragon romance later in the year. They’re all quite different, but that primal beat of passion and love remains the same.
The new novel is A Lady’s Secreta Georgian historical of the sexy persuasion – and boy can Robin Fitzvitry persuade! For some reason (it’s always a mystery) I’m writing about a trio of rakes these days. Now of course, being me, they’re good rakes. None of those sleazy, cynical types who don’t care about the ruin they leave behind. They’re just, let us say, free-loving, fun- loving guys. Being Georgian gentlemen, they’re also the silk and lace type, with rapiers on their hips. I do adore them.
I’ve tagged this book “the nun on the run and the rake on the make,” which pretty well sums it up, but of all four heroines, Sister Immaculata is the most unconventional, if you’ll excuse the pun. Their situation is unusual, too. Not so much that they’re traveling through northern France, but the misadventures at the Goulart Farm, the villain stalking them, and the secrets they’re both keeping from each other. It all throws them together too much for common sense and will-power, but that just creates a whole new layer of problems – a true exploding cigar!
The two reissued novels are very much of a contrast, because they’re two of my early works from when I was writing the traditional Regency. Back then, believe it or not, there was no “Regency Historical” because publishers thought Regency = comedy of manners and everyone behaving within the rules of society. Some authors were breaking that mold, but I stuck within it because I enjoyed writing about people of their world, more or less obeying the rules. I think it lent a delicious tension that we sometimes lose if we relax the social restrictions too much in a book. That doesn’t mean, however, that the characters have to be dead from the neck down.
So when, in The Fortune Hunter, Amy de Lacy finds herself muddy and soaked in the kitchen of Harry Crisp and really has to get out of her wet clothes, the scene is essentially the same as it would be in a more erotic novel, with awareness and stirring desire. But whereas some characters might end up making love and Harry and Amy don’t.
This wasn’t because the form was inhibiting me back then. It was because Amy and Harry simply wouldn’t. She’s a practical young lady and a virgin. Why would she be so foolish, even if this stranger is handsome and kind? And Harry is a decent young man. It wouldn’t occur to him that a damsel in distress was fair game for sex, and in any case it wouldn’t simply be foolish on his part and likely to lead to all kinds of problems.
I wonder how many strangers even today, tossed together in a situation like that would end up having sex?
In the past, there were generally so many reasons for people not to have casual sex that many historical romance novels fail my plausibility test. Desire and passion have always existed, but most people aren’t whirled entirely out of reason in a moment. So why have we fallen into so many situations like that in books? Do you like it, believable or not? Or would you rather the relationship develop more, so that folly seems more likely?
Anyway, restraint doesn’t make Amy and Harry’s lives easier, of course. Amy is supposed to marry money, and Harry isn’t rich. Harry is appalled that she’s so mercenary, but he can’t stay away. Which leads, of course, to an explosion.
Deirdre and Don Juan, the other trad regency, is a spicier read. Deirdre is another virginal young lady, but Lord Everdon is a rake, and when he decides to woo and win Deirdre away from her self-centered 
betrothed he has plenty of skills at his disposal. Different character, different skills, different circumstances, but the same chemistry, going a bit faster and a bit further, until both Everdon and Deirdre realize they are in love. But that doesn’t solve things at all. It’s a disaster. The last story is The Dragon and the Virgin Princess in a collection called Dragon Lovers. That’s out now in trade paperback, but it’ll be out in mass market paperback in November. This is a fantasy novella set in
another world. Princess Rozlinda is the Official Virgin Princess, and ready to do her duty as symbolic sacrifice to appease the dragon. Eager, in fact, because then she can finally cease to be V. But this time, it’s not symbolic. No, she’s not eaten – that would end the story fast! – but she’s claimed as bride by the dragon-rider and carried away.
Rozlinda’s furious, but this union seems to be her destiny and her captor is handsome and virile. He’ll do. Imagine her reaction when he doesn’t even want to touch her! But the dragon lord is no match for Rozlinda’s allure and the aphrodisiac effects of dragon drool, which of course only leads to many more
problems. The old exploding cigar.
Do you agree that this is another pattern in the romance novel dance – that having sex causes more problems, and falling in love makes things even worse? Do you agree that the patterns of courtship and seduction are fundamentally the same over time and space?
How important is early sex in romance novels? Have we sometimes gone too far and cut the dance too short? I’d love to read your thoughts on these questions.
I’ll be giving a book to a randomly picked commenter here today. It can be one of the books mentioned here, but you’ll have to wait for A Lady’s Secret or Lovers and Ladies until I get my copies. Or the winner can pick a book from my book list on my web site. I have copies of most of my titles, but not all. You must be registered at this blog in order to win.
All best wishes,
Jo
The delicious tension in Regencies
Jo:
I was glad to see you comment on the mores of the traditional Regencies. Much as I enjoy reading the Regency Historicals, I also enjoy the sexual tension presented when there are not the specific sexual scenes. I also enjoy the inchoate sexual scenes in both movies and on television as well as in novels. I will enjoy reading A Lady's Secret, Lovers and Ladies and Dragon Lovers.
Welcome Jo!
I have to tell you, I read Dragon Lovers, and the OVP and staying V just kills me -- hysterical! She was such a hoot. I loved that story, and it's way out of my usual reading, but I happened across it, and it really was wonderful.
As to your question, I don't think it really matters when the characters get together, as long as the story around it is compelling. I think that in any romance, we're not really waiting to see them have sex, we're waiting to see them fall in love.
Sex at that point, when they fall, is always different than it is early on, and it's so still satisfying to see them fall. When they go to bed and then regret it, or have that black moment early on and then have to work their way out, I think that really can be almost more effective if it's done well. In the same way, an effective build can really have you hankering to see them together, but I've also had the experience of one love scene not being nearly enough to satisfy me as a reader after an entire book of build-up. I always want to see what happens more after they get together.
However, regardless of where sex happens, if the entire story is just building reasons for them to have sex, I find those stories empty. The emotional tension has to be there, the growth in the characters, etc for the sex to mean anything.
I think your rakish trio sounds very tempting... I don't typically read historicals, but you could be the exception. ;)
Sam
Princess Rozlinda
Princess Rozlinda - the Official Virgin Princess, is one of my most favorite characters you have developed. I love the story itself but Rozlinda is a strong girl who is becoming a woman through very strange means. I enjoy your writing very much and you are right we need to have the build up to the sex parts or the book would be very boring - for me it's the story to those parts that makes the book worth reading!!
Believability
I don't expect to find complete believability in romance fiction, any more than I expect to find water that isn't wet or that the hero/heroine won't find an HEA. All that is required is that events in the romance be "possible," which allows a lot of latitude. That thought brings to mind M.J. Putney's comment in an afterword: "As for the penguins--why not?"
Sexual "dance"
Just as when we have a real dinner--IF they served dessert (one that you really crave) first--the rest of the mean is FLAT! IF I read a romance where the hero and heroine meet, have sex and then fall in love--IT seems flat! A "so what" book!
TO me (dinosaur that I am) Sex is "dessert"! I think as in a symphony--the music or dance in this instance should build up and gradually get to the SEX!
IF Beethoven's Ninth symphony started with the ODE TO JOY then it would have absolutely wrecked the whole beginning! You wouldn't have listened so closely. All music modern and classics "build up" that is the whole secret to enjoyment!
To some writers, it's a lot of sex (with almost strangers) and a little plot mixed in to make it a "book" but I soon lose interest in them.
Keep doing your writing as you do Jo, that's what make us "hungry" for the next book and makes your books special!
MY comment
After hitting POST COMMENT ---I realized I said something that was NOT completely true!
IF Beethoven put his ODE TO JOY in the front of his Ninth Symphony==THE rest would be beautiful anyway, BUT not so perfect as written ! I couldn't let that statement stand as it was since it really bothered me that it was SO wrong!
Reminder
If you want to qualify to win a book through posting, you have to register on the site -- it's easy and free, just sign up on the left (and change your password for it to stick) but just letting you all know as I see a lot of unregistered posts, and don't want anyone disappointed! :)
Sam
It could be either...
...like a previous poster mentioned, it depends on the rest of the story. I've read some fantastic stories that don't actually have the sex in them. And I've read some that have sex all the way through that had engaging stories with them as well. Of course, I've read duds in both categories, too. I really think it depends on the story!! If an author is good, s/he can make just about anything believable.
I think a lot of patterns in courtship and seduction are the same, but societal norms have changed, so the patterns may appear different. But passion and the desire to connect with another person? That remains unchanged. IMHO, of course.
Happy Thursday!
Thanks for the comments. I'm
Thanks for the comments. I'm so happy to hear some of you have read and enjoyed the Virgin Princess story. I had such fun with that. It's more modern in writing style and almost tempts me to write contemporary -- except that I can't get my head in the here and now. That story's in an imaginary world and that's different.
Good comments about the place of sex in books.
Of course, I've done some stories with early sex, but it's not sex with love. In fact in the one that comes to mind first -- Secrets of the Night -- love definitely is the exploding cigar!
Realized I could point you to some free fiction -- why not? I have a short stories on my web site as a Christmas gift to my readers a few years back. It's in the sweet trad regency style.
http://members.shaw.ca/jkbev/xmasnup.html
Enjoy!
Jo
First: Jo, I LOVE your
First: Jo, I LOVE your work...particularly the Rogues series (I've collected them all, though my favorite--for its depth--is To Rescue a Rogue, about Dare) and Frobidden Magic (for its magical element that is not too over the top).
Second: Regarding your question vis a vis the plausibility factor of the sex happening too soon...Each time I've read one, I've thought, "God, I wish the author'd develop the characters more so that it feels more believeable AND so that the folly becomes rcher and more complex
Sex for the sake of Sex
I have read so many books where the sex is just for the sake of sex. . . it is so much better if the story is compelling and the sex is spiced in there like salt and pepper. Jo, you do a wonderful job of keeping it balanced in your books, that's why I loved reading yours. Books really get me that drag out the story with so many twists and turns that you get tired trying to keep up and then heroine and hero never ever get together until the very end and then. . that's it! Those kind of books just frustrate me. The players in your novel are playful and believable and the spice of laughter you add is very refreshing. They are mysterious enough to draw you yet not scare you. I commend you and look forward to your newest book. Thanks
You always have the most
You always have the most interesting tidbits! I'm really looking forward to A Lady's Secret! Thanks for the heads up that you were blogging today, and I actually remembered! Jen :)
Dragon lovers sounds like a
Dragon lovers sounds like a really good book. I love the romance novel dance. Sex complicates matter and I agree that falling in love can complicate it even more. I love reading these books and sitting back thinking you idiot why did you say or do that. We all make mistakes in the real life romance dance and just get a kick out of it in books. At least in the books I now everything will work out.
no argument?
I love that everyone's onside, but does no one want to argue another point of view? A debate clarifies the mind. :)
BTW, the other stories in Dragon Lovers are as good and interesting. All different.
Jo :)
LOL
I was trying to be moderate, but I could be a little stronger in saying "bring on the sex!" LOL
I would argue that especially now, in the current historical moment, getting to know each other and going through ups and downs *while* being sexually active is more common than not...People have sex at younger ages, and most relationships move to sex maybe faster than they used to. I don't see anything particularly bad about that, depending on the people and the situation.
Sex doesn't necessarily preclude romance, and it's this place where you get to know someone in a unique way -- it's really opening yourself up to someone in way that you can't in any other way.
I am not a very knowledgeable person insofar as history, but my impression is that sex in some cultures or historical moments was much more raunchy and open than it is even now -- in many ways, we're so conservative these days. Especially in the US.
And, you know, it's just fun -- I think the casual sex at the start of books can still be full of passion and lust and attraction, and those are worthy emotions as well. As are enjoyment and fun.
I'm fond of having my characters say, from time to time, that "it is just sex -- but that's no reason it still can't be special."
So, I am a fan of sex in romance. I don't think it's boring or empty or uninteresting. I think it's real. I think people do get carried away, and I think "thank God for that!" LOL
I don't like books that are simply descriptive, however -- that IS boring -- but as long as there's a story, I'm game.
So... better? :)
Sam
Sex and the . . .
Jo - I have all your books so far and they are on my keepers shelf. I find that I read very few historicals any more, regardless of time period. You are one of the few that I will read every time a new one comes out.
One of the main complaints I keep hearing about "bodice rippers" is that they are formulaic. But I find that really good authors can take the same premise - boy meets girl and finds that exploding cigar - and make a really good and different read.
I find that I now skip over the sex scenes more often than not in almost all the books I read. I read for the character development and the suspense between characters and in the plot itself. I really dislike the forced sex scenes unless it really is an integral part of the plot - such as a serial rapist/murder type thing, but that is not the hero forcing the heroine. However, I also do not like the cozy/sweet kind of stuff either, where there is only a sweet kiss between the two. Guess I am the middle of the road kind of girl!
Believing the romance is understanding character movitations
I do believe there is a certain pattern to romance and human nature that exist in a relationship no matter the culture, time, or setting.
In the hands of a good author, though, I don't think there any one set rule for how the pattern of the romance and sex must develop. If an author makes me understand and believe the characters and world enough I can suspend a lot of disbelief in actions that might not fit. (Although I do find it much easier to suspend my disbelief of those normal romance patterns in a historical or fantasy novel than in a contemporary where I know the rules better.)
Whether sex happens early in the book or tension builds throughout the story the characters must be true to themselves and the circumstances. When reading a fast paced life or death suspense novel it is easier to believe that the hero and heroine might jump right into bed than it would be the Amy and Harry would turn their backs on their regency upbring. So in the end I guess that means for me, as long as the pattern of romance development is believable then the when and where of the love (with or without the sex) doesn't really matter. Unfortunately I think there are many writers that spend so much time developing the settings for the explosions caused by the love that they forget to let the reader inside their characters head for us to really grasp the why.
edit- Jo, What other point of view do you want argued? That romance isn't essentially the same in any time or place. If that was true I don't think we would have stories from ancient Greece, China or India still being retold and resonating today. For me the debate would be in whether or not people innately believe that romance and love can lead to and must end in the happily ever after or the tragedy.
Sex is Optional
As far as I am concerned a book doesn't have to have sex in it at all to be great. If there are going to be sex scenes in it I prefer it to be later in the book. If it is in the beginning it usually does not seem realistic unless it is a friends to lovers plot. I prefer to see the relationship developed before throwing sex into it or I tend to feel disappointed.
Sex with love vs just sex
Carol G
I have read a lot of various types of romance books in my many years, and have found that a good author can make the sexual tension be more interesting than a strictly sex based encounter. In the past decade or so there has been a major increase in books throwing in sex scenes just to be able to call them 'steamy, sensual, etc'. And that doesn't even include those who write so-called erotica (I have tried to read excerpts of some of those, and find that I am totally turned off by the images, language and usually a total lack of story line!) I still re-read Georgette Heyer and many of the earlier books in the regency and historical romance genres and still enjoy them because the characters are interesting, and probably much more true to their time and place than any of those more 'modern' ones that try to put present day mores on historical characters.
That being said, I also enjoy a love story that includes sex as an integral part of the story. But it has to be within the bounds of reason--jumping into bed with someone in the first few chapters of a book without any real reason to do so does not move a story line forward in most cases.
I love the sexual tension in
I love the sexual tension in a book that leads to the sex act. If it happens too soon in the book I feel as if i have benn cheated out of part of the story.
It depends...
Hi, Jo,
I think the timing of sex in the story really depends on the story--sometimes it doesn't make sense given the characters and the plot, and sometimes it does. I do prefer that the characters not simply hop into the sack right off (there's something very delicious about the building of tension), but sometimes that fits the plot and that can work well, too. I just don't think that sex is the goal in romances--the HEA is, at least for me.
Welcome to Cigars!!
Jo, it's wonderful to have you here, today! I love your blog over at Word Wenches, btw.
I'll admit that when I want to read romance, I tend to pick up a juicy historical. I grew up on Barbara Cartland and Kathleen Woodiwiss, and I think historicals will always be my first love. But whether I'm reading an historical or a steamy contemporary, I like early sex, if it's done for the right reasons and makes sense within the context of the story. I'm not a big fan of gratuitous sex that doesn't move the plot forward or complicate things for the characters, but I think early sex can definitely increase the tension...I love when the hero can't stop thinking about her, or what she does to him. As readers, we know it's an early indication that he's falling for her. No matter how many women he's had, she's the only one who can involve his heart and his body (his body and his heart?). I love that pivotal moment when he realizes that the sex alone isn't enough, and he sets out to win her heart, as well.
Sex in the Middle
I agree that the buildup of sexual tension is needed to make the sex more believable. Sometimes the tension is dragged out till the end of the book. It it usually suitable for sex to occur by the middle of the story. That give us ample time to explore their sexual relationship and how it affects their romance.
tension
I agree that all kinds of sexual interaction can work if the author does it right. That's the key, isn't it? :)
But I'm with the people here who enjoy the tension as much as the release -- the sex. Sure, as I discussed in the main post, after sex can come lots of luscious problems, but in most cases I think the build of "wanting" v "can't have" is too delicious to be skipped over.
As a writer, I enjoy playing with that and getting as much out of it as possible. But we're all different, which is what makes the romance genre so special, and accounts for our huge number of readers!
Jo :)
more...
I forgot to add that when it comes to the couple having sex, I think it should be a real scene. I don't like it when the author skips over things. It's such a big moment, when a couple first have sex, so I like the author to give me all the nuances -- the uncertainties, the explorations, the discoveries, the special sensations,
Jo :)
Regencies
I have read and enjoyed Regencies in the past and there are no sex scenes in those books but the stories are still great. I think an early sex scene in a story can work if it makes sense in the story but if it seems out of place then it can make the story awkward
Right time for sex?
I am under the opinion that the characters decide when the right time is for them to have sex. It sounds strange I know, but the characters are people in essence though we can of course manipulate their lives because the pen is in our hands, but they have their own thoughts situations and desires. The characters seem to speak from the page as if they have a real life of their own. Based on their own feelings and actions, sex and desire and of course the ultimate realization that they are in fact in love is revealed to the writer. I have read and own all of your books and it always seems that the characters always decide what's right for them based on what goes on and all the things about the characters that are revealed. The novels and storylines flow so that sex just happens when it happens and then they are forced to deal with the consequences or simply languish in the desire of it. But as we all know as women sex always complicates things whether good or bad. So I don't really think there is too early or too long of a wait for the characters to have sex, because whether they jump at the chance or wait there is still that tension. If they have sex early, they are now having to deal with the realization that they had sex, and given the time frames you write in, that usually involves marriage and sometimes outraged parents. If they wait, it's the sealing of the deal or the final realization that it's not just sex but love. I love the historical romance and of course who doesn't drool over the love dance in your artfully written works.
character driven sex
"I am under the opinion that the characters decide when the right time is for them to have sex. It sounds strange I know, but the characters are people in essence though we can of course manipulate their lives because the pen is in our hands, but they have their own thoughts situations and desires. The characters seem to speak from the page as if they have a real life of their own. Based on their own feelings and actions, sex and desire and of course the ultimate realization that they are in fact in love is revealed to the writer."
Misti, that is so true. I rarely push characters toward sex, but if ever I've tried, I've failed. It has to be the right time for them -- generally for the heroine.It's usually the time when whatever doubts or fears she has are overwhelmed by desire or love, or both.
But in keeping with the brain science I mentioned, love and desire aren't the same. We all know that people can experience powerful desire without love, and powerful love without having sex. So it's really a harmony of the two when it works out perfectly.
Jo :)
Winner
Thanks to everyone for joining in the discussion. Very interesting!
The randomly picked winner of a book is dbsweethearts!
As I said, you can wait a little while and get either A Lady's Secret or Lovers and Ladies, or pick some other book off my booklist at http://www.jobev.com/booklist.html I don't have spare copies of all books there, however, especially the older titles.
Happy Easter holiday, everyone,
Jo :)
Your Books
I love your books so keep up the good work!
As far as early sex in a romance noval I prefer it to happen later in the book. For some reason I think the waiting game is have the fun. Get to know the character first. I like the sex to hit about half way through the book. Then continue for there. If it happens to early in the story then it seem like the whole book is about sex. I like the romance first.
Happy Easter everyone